philosophy meta-forum

Jared Warren

Scott

10 day(s) ago

How does he not have a job?

Simone

10 day(s) ago

He does have a job.

Strato

10 day(s) ago

I think the more pressing question is not so much how someone like Warren does not have a job, but rather how so many clearly mediocre people do have a job.

You see, the entire narrative about the academic job market is a total misdirection. We always hear people say that not everyone who is deserving will be able to find a job. Well, fine. But why do we not have a discussion about all of the undeserving people who do get a job.

Guan

10 day(s) ago

You would be surprised how many good people coming out of top programs are having a tough time on the market these days. I'm not saying that JW's case isn't an extreme example, just that the general pattern isn't that uncommon.

Scott

10 day(s) ago

I think the more pressing question is not so much how someone like Warren does not have a job, but rather how so many clearly mediocre people do have a job.

You see, the entire narrative about the academic job market is a total misdirection. We always hear people say that not everyone who is deserving will be able to find a job. Well, fine. But why do we not have a discussion about all of the undeserving people who do get a job.

Strato

One reason might be is that one finds little agreement about who is undeserving. Another might be that few would care about undeserving people getting jobs if everyone who was deserving got jobs.

But let me take the spirit of your point on board and ask why Warren lacks a job while a few people whose publication records are much worse than his (consider the extreme case of zero publications) do have jobs.

Joseph

10 day(s) ago

There is a lot more to the story of why Jared Warren doesn't have a tenure track position than meets the eye. He was an extremely problematic colleague at NYU (among other issues).

Xenophon

10 day(s) ago

There is a lot more to the story of why Jared Warren doesn't have a tenure track position than meets the eye. He was an extremely problematic colleague at NYU (among other issues).

Joseph

I don't know Warren (nor for that matter anyone at NYU), but this is laughable. Some of the worst scum of the earth are notable and powerful people in this profession. If they are somehow thriving, I would love to hear what unforgivable thing Warren did to be essentially unemployable.

My guess is that he didn't bootlick the right people at NYU and now they are paying him back by reminding him that one must never bite the hand that feeds!

Edward

10 day(s) ago

Joseph – didn;t the poor guy have to come on the previous meta-blog to explicitly deny exactly this kind of anonymous suggestion that he is 'problematic' and ask people to refrain from this kind of gossip as it could seriously fuck up his prospects?

Do you really want to post this kind of remark about a guy who is still lookign for a permanent job?

Sun

10 day(s) ago

I thought his post at LR was good and worth sharing:

Jared said...

My PhD is from NYU (Fall 2015).

I have publications in The Journal of Philosophy, Philosophical Studies, Philosophers’ Imprint, Philosophical Quarterly, Synthese, The Journal of Philosophical Logic, and Metaphilosophy. I also have a full book manuscript and pending R&Rs at The Philosophical Review and Philosophy and Phenomenological Research.

I’ve been on the job market twice and have never even had an interview, let alone a flyout or a job.

I thought this worth sharing since many graduate students I’ve spoken to seem to think that either coming from a top-rated PhD program or having a few decent publications, alone, will *guarantee* you consideration on the job market. This isn’t the case, and I don’t think that I’m as much of an outlier as some reading this may think.

From what I’ve seen and heard, connections are by far the most important thing on the market, at least for research jobs. Some particularly well-connected graduate students skip going on the job market entirely and are simply offered top jobs, even jobs with ongoing searches. This isn’t that rare. I also think that the impact of area at “open” jobs is often understated.

I’m sure many will dismiss my take as sour grapes, but I viewed things much the same way before going on the market the first time. And, frankly, it should not be surprising that the philosophical job market works the way that other job markets work, given human nature.

Kuo

10 day(s) ago

He might simultaneously be a jerk and deny being a jerk.

Xenophon

10 day(s) ago

I think the more pressing question is not so much how someone like Warren does not have a job, but rather how so many clearly mediocre people do have a job.

You see, the entire narrative about the academic job market is a total misdirection. We always hear people say that not everyone who is deserving will be able to find a job. Well, fine. But why do we not have a discussion about all of the undeserving people who do get a job.

Strato

One reason might be is that one finds little agreement about who is undeserving. Another might be that few would care about undeserving people getting jobs if everyone who was deserving got jobs.

But let me take the spirit of your point on board and ask why Warren lacks a job while a few people whose publication records are much worse than his (consider the extreme case of zero publications) do have jobs.

Scott

Myisha Cherry: deserving or no?

Franciscus

10 day(s) ago

Here is what he said on the old metablog:

It has been confirmed to me over and over again, through many independent channels, both that my letters are *extremely* strong and that there is nothing in them about my personality that in any way explains my situation (in fact, yesterday I spoke on the phone with an NYU Prof who had just read them for the first time and who confirmed all of this). Maybe everyone is lying to me about this, but I doubt it.

On the other hand, I was highly critical of the graduate program at NYU while I was there (for good reason, I think) and so it’s possible that based on this, rumors may have spread about my being difficult to deal with. I’ve heard speculation about this, but nothing concrete. It’s possible that something like this may have hurt me on the margins, but I really don’t think it has played much of a causal role in my job market woes.

What explains my joblessness? One thing to keep in mind is something that Profs at top places have told me over and over again: hiring committees are not just trying to hire the best philosopher (and even if they were, their success rate wouldn’t be perfect). Connections, demographic factors, and area/perceived area play *major* roles in the market. In some cases these factors alone are decisive. I have personally had the experience of being told “off the record” by search committee members at different places that a particular job had been intended for some well-connected person from the start, that the job would only be going to someone in a particular demographic due to internal or external pressures, and that despite the job being listed as “open” that they were really only looking at people in two or three areas.

None of this should be surprising and I’m not complaining about it. All of us on the market should recognize these realities and work to improve our chances in any ethically permissible way available to us (particular and direct cases of corruption should, of course, be decried). The reality is that having the potential to be good or even great at philosophy is neither necessary nor sufficient for getting a job, even a top job. But the heartening thing for someone in my situation is that merit, especially as demonstrated by quality publications under blind peer review, is a still a factor on the job market. Philosophy hasn’t yet completely turned into just another corrupt humanities field. So yes, being human, I’ve been bitter and frustrated at times, and I’m in a life situation that makes philosophical work difficult to undertake, but nobody owes me a job, no matter how good I am and no matter what I do. And for various reasons, I’ve avoided the social aspects of the profession that would have helped me to get my name out there and improve my chances. With all of this said: I believe very strongly in my own philosophical ability and I have not yet given up all hope that said ability will land me in a top research job eventually.

I’d prefer not to discuss my case further in this public forum, but people can e-mail me if there was anything about my situation/case they were curious about. I decided to jump in here since, having been pointed to this discussion about me, I wanted to dispel any unfounded rumors or speculation about my case that could take on a life of its own and make it *impossible* for someone in my position to *ever* get hired. The most depressing thing is that these comments might mean it has already happened.

Xenophon

10 day(s) ago

He might simultaneously be a jerk and deny being a jerk.

Kuo

Right, because being a jerk is clearly a disqualification in this profession.

Everyone knows that one can be the world's biggest jerk so long as one is also a bootlicker and a team player. The only unforgivable thing in this profession is being independent and having integrity. For that crime, well, there is no mercy.

Musonius

10 day(s) ago

My guess is Joseph wants to do exactly that. What luck one must have to be in a department with Joseph!

Joseph – didn;t the poor guy have to come on the previous meta-blog to explicitly deny exactly this kind of anonymous suggestion that he is 'problematic' and ask people to refrain from this kind of gossip as it could seriously fuck up his prospects?

Do you really want to post this kind of remark about a guy who is still lookign for a permanent job?

Edward

Sun

10 day(s) ago

NYU says he has a fancy looking postdoc--good on him!

https://as.nyu.edu/content/nyu-as/as/departments/philosophy/graduate/philosophy-department-graduate-placement-record.html

Josip

10 day(s) ago

He might simultaneously be a jerk and deny being a jerk.

Kuo

Right, because being a jerk is clearly a disqualification in this profession.

Everyone knows that one can be the world's biggest jerk so long as one is also a bootlicker and a team player. The only unforgivable thing in this profession is being independent and having integrity. For that crime, well, there is no mercy.

Xenophon

I said nothing about whether he should have a job.

Xenophon

10 day(s) ago

He might simultaneously be a jerk and deny being a jerk.

Kuo

Right, because being a jerk is clearly a disqualification in this profession.

Everyone knows that one can be the world's biggest jerk so long as one is also a bootlicker and a team player. The only unforgivable thing in this profession is being independent and having integrity. For that crime, well, there is no mercy.

Xenophon

I said nothing about whether he should have a job.

Josip

So then your comment was even less material than I'd originally imagined.

Hannah

10 day(s) ago

How many times do we have to revisit this:

One's published papers is *a single factor* that goes into hiring decisions, and one that is *easily outweighed* by other factors. Many places, especially teaching institutions, do not care if you publish in the "Journal of Philosophical Logic" if you suck at teaching, or if you'd be an asshole colleague, or if your research program is esoteric and boring, or if you aren't willing to do any service, etc. etc. And at many places, they'd be totally justified in giving more weight to these other factors. (To be clear, I don't know JW personally, so I'm not saying that *he in particular* has these qualities.)

Why do we get indignant about JW's case, and not about cases in which a person who teaches a million classes and is beloved by students (but who doesn't publish) doesn't get hired by research institutions?

For myself, I don't think indignation is warranted in either case. I just don't get why JW's case attracts so much disproportionate attention.

Xenophon

10 day(s) ago

How many times do we have to revisit this:

One's published papers is *a single factor* that goes into hiring decisions, and one that is *easily outweighed* by other factors. Many places, especially teaching institutions, do not care if you publish in the "Journal of Philosophical Logic" if you suck at teaching, or if you'd be an asshole colleague, or if your research program is esoteric and boring, or if you aren't willing to do any service, etc. etc. And at many places, they'd be totally justified in giving more weight to these other factors. (To be clear, I don't know JW personally, so I'm not saying that *he in particular* has these qualities.)

Why do we get indignant about JW's case, and not about cases in which a person who teaches a million classes and is beloved by students (but who doesn't publish) doesn't get hired by research institutions?

For myself, I don't think indignation is warranted in either case. I just don't get why JW's case attracts so much disproportionate attention.

Hannah

4.5/10

Tominaga

10 day(s) ago

He might simultaneously be a jerk and deny being a jerk.

Kuo

Just as a matter of contingent fact, jerks in philosophy tend to come across as jerks online, as a casual knowledge of the usual blogs will confirm. I don't think there is any trace of that in the posts of JW's we've seen; if anything, his responses seem rather measured given the circumstances. (It cannot be especially fun to be the subject of anonymous gossip, doubly so while being unwillingly made into a poster-boy for the general ills of the market, and triply so while being unemployed.)

Joseph

10 day(s) ago

First of all, Xenophon: "Josip" and "Joseph" are distinct names. Don't make yourself look even dumber by making simple mistakes like this.

Hannah: Exactly right. I couldn't agree more.

It is also worth noting that having zero presentations, zero grants or awards, and only teaching logic and introduction to philosophy might also be a factor. There are *many* people on the job market with stellar research output (if not quite at his level), but aren't egregiously underqualified in these other respects.

That's not to mention other aspects of his case, which I will not discuss here. Try talking to someone at NYU about it sometime like I have, rather than spout about this case in ignorance.

Shannon

10 day(s) ago

First of all, Xenophon: "Josip" and "Joseph" are distinct names. Don't make yourself look even dumber by making simple mistakes like this.

Hannah: Exactly right. I couldn't agree more.

It is also worth noting that having zero presentations, zero grants or awards, and only teaching logic and introduction to philosophy might also be a factor. There are *many* people on the job market with stellar research output (if not quite at his level), but aren't egregiously underqualified in these other respects.

That's not to mention other aspects of his case, which I will not discuss here. Try talking to someone at NYU about it sometime like I have, rather than spout about this case in ignorance.

Joseph

50 bucks says this is probably one of the scumbags at NYU who is screwing Warren. Or one of the boys who runs with the crew.

You're sad dude.

You really do make a fine professor.

Musonius

10 day(s) ago

Joseph is making NYU look like a pretty toxic environment. Who wants to be around people like that?

August

10 day(s) ago

How does he not have a job?

Scott

Here's a guess: His pubs disqualify him from all but top research jobs and he somehow managed to leave a bad personal impression on the people who run in those circles. How does he not have a job isn't the interesting question. There are normative questions in the vicinity here about whether these kinds of factors should play the kind of role they appear to be playing that are more interesting.

But forget about those kinds of questions, too, in favor of another descriptive question that no one appears to be asking: How does he not have a job _outside the US_?

Anyone who has spent time doing philosophy in various other parts of the world would know that with his track record, he could easily land a solid research gig somewhere. There are loads of people not closely connected to philosophers in the US who care a lot about research prestige. It seems to me that he must not be applying for those jobs.

Joseph

10 day(s) ago

You can tell you're winning an argument when, rather than responding to the points you make, your opponent resorts to uninformed ad hominem attacks.

Desiderius

10 day(s) ago

The fact that Joseph is willing to go pseudonymously onto a public forum and spread vague, suggestive rumors about a person in Waren's position says a great deal about what kind of person Joseph is (even if every claim Joseph has made is true, which I highly doubt).

Afrikan

10 day(s) ago

The fact that Joseph is willing to go pseudonymously onto a public forum and spread vague, suggestive rumors about a person in Waren's position says a great deal about what kind of person Joseph is (even if every claim Joseph has made is true, which I highly doubt).

Desiderius

Do you know where you are?

Harriet

10 day(s) ago

The fact that Joseph is willing to go pseudonymously onto a public forum and spread vague, suggestive rumors about a person in Waren's position says a great deal about what kind of person Joseph is (even if every claim Joseph has made is true, which I highly doubt).

Desiderius

Do you know where you are?

Afrikan

Yes, do you?

Joseph

10 day(s) ago

The fact that Joseph is willing to go pseudonymously onto a public forum and spread vague, suggestive rumors about a person in Waren's position says a great deal about what kind of person Joseph is (even if every claim Joseph has made is true, which I highly doubt).

Desiderius

Whatever kind of person I am, I can tell that I know a fuckload more about what's going on in this situation than you do.

Joseph

10 day(s) ago

I find it interesting how quickly people here defend pseudonymous criticism of someone whose c.v. is obviously lacking many of the basic accomplishments one would expect from someone a couple years out from their PhD, yet let pseudonymous criticism of obviously well-qualified women slide. It's almost as if the PMF is filled with a bunch of butthurt misogynists!

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