philosophy meta-forum

Leiter on "Post-truth"

Hu

109 day(s) ago

Leiter's comment regarding the "collapse of public mediation by reliable epistemic authorities who actually track what is true" is not that at all. It is simply the collapse of people's confidence in state intelligence mass media. It is not that more people are beginning to turn from the truth in mainstream press to propaganda on the Internet, but that they are beginning to realize that mainstream news is the propaganda. Just look up Operation Mockingbird or Edward Bernays. Some people are tired of the "work, buy, consume, and die" message pushed by mass media. And I say all this as someone who does not support Trump. I didn't even vote. I thought everyone has known since at least Bush-Gore that presidents aren't elected. They're selected. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVvT9tnR96M

Luce

109 day(s) ago

People like Leiter who think of themselves as not just smart, but clued up because they read Marx and Freud have been especially embarrassing since the 2016 campaign and election.

Sure, Trump's no saint here, but LM-Fucking-AO if you thought Hillary Clinton was the sane choice and the savior of democracy.

Iris

109 day(s) ago

Why would anyone link to that godawful video?

Kuno

109 day(s) ago

Why would anyone link to that godawful video?

Iris

Now back to your regularly scheduled programming. Nothing to see here, folks...

Right?

Mary

109 day(s) ago

"Trump's no saint here"

And the award for understatement of the millennium goes to . . .

In reality, Donald Trump is a lying, self-dealing, authoritarian, hypocritical, vindictive, racist, misogynist sexual predator. He thinks himself above the law. He is also a full blown narcissist. And, I am not sure whether this is worst of all, or actually our saving grace, but he is profoundly stupid. The man is a fat orange moron. His idiotic piggy eyes and his disgusting flabby butt make me feel sick. I hope he gets hit with the full force of the law, and if not that, then by lightening while playing golf and dies painfully.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

The silver lining is Stephen Colbert. He makes the pain ALMOST worth it.

Basilides

109 day(s) ago

"Trump's no saint here"

And the award for understatement of the millennium goes to . . .

In reality, Donald Trump is a lying, self-dealing, authoritarian, hypocritical, vindictive, racist, misogynist sexual predator. He thinks himself above the law. He is also a full blown narcissist. And, I am not sure whether this is worst of all, or actually our saving grace, but he is profoundly stupid. The man is a fat orange moron. His idiotic piggy eyes and his disgusting flabby butt make me feel sick. I hope he gets hit with the full force of the law, and if not that, then by lightening while playing golf and dies painfully.

Mary

This is sure sane.

Parmenides

109 day(s) ago

"Trump's no saint here"

And the award for understatement of the millennium goes to . . .

In reality, Donald Trump is a lying, self-dealing, authoritarian, hypocritical, vindictive, racist, misogynist sexual predator. He thinks himself above the law. He is also a full blown narcissist. And, I am not sure whether this is worst of all, or actually our saving grace, but he is profoundly stupid. The man is a fat orange moron. His idiotic piggy eyes and his disgusting flabby butt make me feel sick. I hope he gets hit with the full force of the law, and if not that, then by lightening while playing golf and dies painfully.

Mary

Indeed, there's not one trace of hyperbole here; not one trace of the deafening roar of the mass-media's collective opinions which have eroded the common man's ability to see objectively. This is all obvious to anyone who is smart enough to live in an urban liberal enclave, and hold the right opinions.

Trump's voters do thank you heartily, however -- this way of thinking is why Trump will be a two-term president.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

"Trump's no saint here"

And the award for understatement of the millennium goes to . . .

In reality, Donald Trump is a lying, self-dealing, authoritarian, hypocritical, vindictive, racist, misogynist sexual predator. He thinks himself above the law. He is also a full blown narcissist. And, I am not sure whether this is worst of all, or actually our saving grace, but he is profoundly stupid. The man is a fat orange moron. His idiotic piggy eyes and his disgusting flabby butt make me feel sick. I hope he gets hit with the full force of the law, and if not that, then by lightening while playing golf and dies painfully.

Mary

Indeed, there's not one trace of hyperbole here; not one trace of the deafening roar of the mass-media's collective opinions which have eroded the common man's ability to see objectively. This is all obvious to anyone who is smart enough to live in an urban liberal enclave, and hold the right opinions.

Trump's voters do thank you heartily, however -- this way of thinking is why Trump will be a two-term president.

Parmenides

Classic reversal. Blame the one who points out the facts for the facts themselves. "No wonder everyone was fooled by the emperor's new clothes, it's because people pointed out he was naked!"

Trump supporters, as in people who actually support him, are in some bizarre cult. They are deluded and stupid, totally brainwashed by conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones. The rest of the Repubs who go along with it are either hoping to use Trump to their own advantage (Supreme court judge, tax cuts, etc) or are cowed into submission by their own electorate.

My only hope for America is that Trumpism proves the fundamental health of their democracy, like an infection that the immune system recognises and overcomes. If not, Trumpism will be the death of America.

Parmenides

109 day(s) ago

And Trump is going to win in 2020 because you're a psychopath who can't shut up.

Good work. I guess.

Axel

109 day(s) ago

My only hope for America is that Trumpism proves the fundamental health of their democracy, like an infection that the immune system recognises and overcomes. If not, Trumpism will be the death of America.

Mary

What is so astounding about this is that you seem to think everything was a-okay with your system *before* Trump.

You'd look less like an unhinged loon if you could at least bother with consistency, rather than suddenly being concerned about democracy now that the guy you don't like is in charge.

It's surely just a coincidence that your opinions here are the opinions of the self-proclaimed elites who just happen to run 98% of all media outlets. It must be pure reason at work, rather than delusional hysterics and a near-total blackout on self-awareness.

The only thing better than Trump's win in 2016 will be his 2020 landslide, brought to you by these slobbering mid-wits who will once again be blindsided by the obvious.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

And Trump is going to win in 2020 because you're a psychopath who can't shut up.

Good work. I guess.

Parmenides

How utterly transparent you are. Your attempt at manipulation is embarrassingly bad for you. I guess you can't admit to yourself that you support a disgusting thing like Donald Trump, so you project your shame on to others.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

My only hope for America is that Trumpism proves the fundamental health of their democracy, like an infection that the immune system recognises and overcomes. If not, Trumpism will be the death of America.

Mary

What is so astounding about this is that you seem to think everything was a-okay with your system *before* Trump.

You'd look less like an unhinged loon if you could at least bother with consistency, rather than suddenly being concerned about democracy now that the guy you don't like is in charge.

It's surely just a coincidence that your opinions here are the opinions of the self-proclaimed elites who just happen to run 98% of all media outlets. It must be pure reason at work, rather than delusional hysterics and a near-total blackout on self-awareness.

The only thing better than Trump's win in 2016 will be his 2020 landslide, brought to you by these slobbering mid-wits who will once again be blindsided by the obvious.

Axel

"What is so astounding about this is that you seem to think everything was a-okay with your system *before* Trump."

Are you a mind reader? I guess not, because you are completely wrong. But I guess it's easier to make things up and attribute them to your opponent rather than face the fact that Dear Leader is scum of the earth.

Axel

109 day(s) ago

Are you a mind reader?

Mary

I don't have to be. You're kind enough to put your mental illness on display for all. It's a behaviorist's dream.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

Are you a mind reader?

Mary

I don't have to be. You're kind enough to put your mental illness on display for all. It's a behaviorist's dream.

Axel

Changing the goal posts: you attributed a belief to me I did not express, and now you're pretending it was only ever about my mental health. More desperately transparent behaviour.

You are a Trump supporter, and deep down you know it's wrong. I hope you find the honesty and redemption that your conscience so obviously craves.

Mordecai

109 day(s) ago

Trump is not very bright and gets in his own way a lot.

He also happens to have achieved better results than any president since Reagan.

So do I demand a perfectly curated image of a president, an empty set like Obama? That way I can pretend, like Mary, that I'm morally pure and a political virgin. Nothing was ever my fault.

Or do I openly make a bargain with fallibility and humanity, and just enjoy living my life in a reasonably safe and prosperous country? Then i can decide three years from now whether anyone else can really do better than Trump.

Archytas

109 day(s) ago

Changing the goal posts: you attributed a belief to me I did not express, and now you're pretending it was only ever about my mental health. More desperately transparent behaviour.

You are a Trump supporter, and deep down you know it's wrong. I hope you find the honesty and redemption that your conscience so obviously craves.

Mary

Shut up faggot.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

Changing the goal posts: you attributed a belief to me I did not express, and now you're pretending it was only ever about my mental health. More desperately transparent behaviour.

You are a Trump supporter, and deep down you know it's wrong. I hope you find the honesty and redemption that your conscience so obviously craves.

Mary

Shut up faggot.

Archytas

Typical Trump supporter. And typical closet gay.

Archytas

109 day(s) ago

Typical hysterical woman.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

He also happens to have achieved better results than any president since Reagan.

So do I demand a perfectly curated image of a president, an empty set like Obama? That way I can pretend, like Mary, that I'm morally pure and a political virgin. Nothing was ever my fault.

Mordecai

Trump has not "achieved better results" because he has achieved very little. So far most of his efforts have failed. Unless of course by "results" you mean "Trump's personal bank balance"?

And as for trying to deflect to my own moral character, who cares about my moral character? I am not the leader of the most powerful country on earth: it's not my moral character that counts. Trump is a moral pygmy. A cretin. He is a stunted human being. And we will all suffer for it one way or another.

Mary

109 day(s) ago

Typical hysterical woman.

Archytas

So pointing out facts makes one both hysterical and somehow also a woman?

I guess Leiter was right about our post-truth world.

Al-Ghazali

109 day(s) ago

OP here.

I would hope that the discussion might return to the subject at hand, and elevate itself above debate over Trump. As I mentioned initially, Trump mainstream politics are bread and circus, and something we would all do well to move beyond.

Trump is a puppet, and the fact that so many people are obsessed with him, as if he matters, goes to the heart of my original point. It's theater crafted by mass media.

Archytas

109 day(s) ago

You're either a hysterical woman or a biological male who might as well be. In 2017 that's a distinction without a difference innit?

Mary

108 day(s) ago

OP here.

I would hope that the discussion might return to the subject at hand, and elevate itself above debate over Trump. As I mentioned initially, Trump mainstream politics are bread and circus, and something we would all do well to move beyond.

Trump is a puppet, and the fact that so many people are obsessed with him, as if he matters, goes to the heart of my original point. It's theater crafted by mass media.

Al-Ghazali

What you're saying is appealing in some ways. But I also worry it has an element of apathy and detachment that is a symptom of the problem. A kind of dissociation. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Trump, or more accurately, Trumpism, is an unfolding disaster for America.

Archytas

108 day(s) ago

The fact that Trump makes people like you so upset may be the strongest reason to support him.

Al-Ghazali

108 day(s) ago

OP here.

I would hope that the discussion might return to the subject at hand, and elevate itself above debate over Trump. As I mentioned initially, Trump mainstream politics are bread and circus, and something we would all do well to move beyond.

Trump is a puppet, and the fact that so many people are obsessed with him, as if he matters, goes to the heart of my original point. It's theater crafted by mass media.

Al-Ghazali

What you're saying is appealing in some ways. But I also worry it has an element of apathy and detachment that is a symptom of the problem. A kind of dissociation. I think we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that Trump, or more accurately, Trumpism, is an unfolding disaster for America.

Mary

No apathy here, I assure you. It's simply a question of ensuring that one's efforts are being properly directed. I thiniciank political debate about elections and politicians and so on and so forth misses the point that the true machine behind things lies elsewhere.

Trump, it seems clear to me, is a creation designed to play the role of 1984's Goldstein. People channel their disaffection on him while missing the bigger picture.

Gilles

108 day(s) ago

I'm more interested in seeing what Leiter is gonna say about this whole realism/moralism thing in political philosophy. Maybe things are finally moving in that benighted subfield.

Mordecai

108 day(s) ago

Leiter makes a much better Goldstein figure than Trump.

Liu

107 day(s) ago

The fact that Trump makes people like you so upset may be the strongest reason to support him.

Archytas

“The fact that Trump makes people who get upset by Trump get upset may be the strongest reason to support him.”

So what you’re saying is that your strongest reason for supporting Trump is entirely trivial.

Slow clap.

Thrasymachus

107 day(s) ago

The fact that Trump makes people like you so upset may be the strongest reason to support him.

Archytas

pathetic slave morality

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